Conjoint Gaming [Game On]

CG Gaming Section => Zombie Master => Topic started by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 10:58:47 AM

Title: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 10:58:47 AM: (This post is originally made to discuss those topics along with Ozborne, but anyone is more definitely welcome to pitch in)

I believe that now that we have two admins on the server, we need to make sure that the actions we take are in tune with each other's (i.e. what doesn't fly under one should not fly under the other, and the opposite as well).

I'd thus like to discuss here how we're going to do that, because I don't think we should take lightly the responsibility we have - pragmatically, we have the power to make or break the server, and it's the only remaining ZM server left; that should not slip our mind at any point.
Overzealousness can be make things worse than ever, so carefulness in balancing leniency and respect of the rules should always be observed. We should not turn the server in a military state where you have to ask permission to sneeze, but rather help the players find an enjoyable experience when playing on it.

Right now, the rules of thumb I'd like to follow are those:

---
1) Under normal circumstances:
- Never display yourself as an admin; by all means you are a regular player, here to enjoy the game the same way as any other player;
- Don't abuse admin powers when it isn't to battle a gameplay-damaging behaviour or to enhance the game (e.g. avoid unnecessary use of the "admin talk" commands, random effects or "slay all", etc.)

2) When facing an offence:
- Always issue at least two warnings before taking any action, explaining how and why the behaviour or item is against the rules;
- If any action is to be taken, it must be to remove a bad behaviour that is evidently affecting the game;

3) Any action taken must be proportionate to the offence taking place:
- The gradation of "standard" punishments would be as follow: Slap, Slay, Kick, Ban 5m, Ban 24h;
- Any longer or otherwise permanent punishments (e.g. Permaban, Permamute, Permagag) should be discussed in the Ban Request forum;
- Only climb up the ladder of punishments against repeat offenders;

A) If a player has an offensive name:
- Two warnings;
- Rename them;
- If they change back to an offensive name, start with a Kick then go up the Ladder.

B) If a player has an offensive tag:
- Two warnings;
- Kick them then go up the Ladder.

C) If a player is playing annoying sounds or music over the mic:
- Make sure it is actually gameplay-disruptive, i.e. hurting other players; otherwise simply inform the players how to mute the player themselves;
- Two warnings;
- Mute them for 5m;
- Mute them for 24h;
- Report for a permamute on the forum.

D) If a player is being disrespectful or otherwise harassing/offensive in the chat:
- Make sure it is actually gameplay-disruptive, i.e. hurting other players;
- Two warnings;
- Gag them for 5m;
- Gag them for 24h;
- Report for a permagag on the forum.

E) If a player is trolling or griefing in general (disrupting normal gameplay by e.g. purposedly doing nothing as ZM, hindering the completion of objectives by displacing key items, destroying otherwise useful bonus such as Barrels and Barricades, blocking pathways and elevators, etc.):
- Two warnings (Make sure the player is actually aware they are disrupting normal gameplay (might simply be a newbie that doesn't know what they're doing);
- Start with a Slay then go up the Ladder.

F) If a player is hacking (speedhack or otherwise):
- Two warnings (make sure it's not simply lag or something else);
- Start with a 24h Ban;
- If it happens again, report on the forum for a Permaban.

4) If any action with a consequence longer than immediate (anything above a kick) is taken:
- Inform the offender of their possibility to challenge the action on the forums;
- Make a post on the forum explaining who, what and why so that other admins can know about it (in order to identify repeat offenders) and the offender has a place to challenge the action.

5) Exceptions (regular gameplay events that are not offences but can be disruptive):
- When a round is dragging on because the remaining survivors do not pursue the map objectives (e.g. simply holing up in a safe area): try to explain to them what they should be doing instead; if it doesn't work, shorten the round one way or another (e.g. through a vote).
---

This is not intended to be a "follow-blindly" list of rules, but rather general directions to consider when playing and filling up your role.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any suggestions to add to the list? Is there anything you disagree with?
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 11:00:52 AM: I completely agree with this!
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Live Bait on March 28, 2014, 02:37:36 PM: Well,
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 28, 2014, 04:42:24 PM: Congrats Futeko and Osborne!

Futeko summed servers situation perfectly: you need to be extremely careful. Listed rules sound good to me.

I dont know is this best place to give feedback to admins, but it is you to necessary hear whats on the players hearts.
I haven been mistreated or anything, just some notifications I made:

Osborne:
You really need to low your profile. Like I said earlier, good admin is almost invisible to other players. No one, even the most law abiding citizen, wouldnt want cop behind window watching steps you make. Would you?
I cant relax if I know someones watching my ass, and relaxing is reason why I play games. Could you?

I know its hard to be unseen, but least try to make the illusion of it. Last time we played, after 15min everybody certainly knew whos the boss. Or tried to be.

I dont want to get Admin vs. Players situation:
When admin is online, people keep focusing on him (by fooling and trying the limits). And when The Law is offline, players make all fun of it by messing around "yolo admins not around, lets block the map lol".
You know what I mean.

And for the last, I dont want to hear you flaming to your friends, how you can achieve gatling with your admin rights. Thats immature and putting yourself on a pedestal.

All above may sound bit harsh, but I really mean it. Im not tryin to smoke you out or something. We are on the same side, and I give you my 100% support. Forget your past admin experimence and handle ZM like special kid.
Every Player is weight value of gold.

- SPUTKIN 2000 [RUS]
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 05:22:53 PM: Quote from: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 28, 2014, 04:42:24 PM
Congrats Futeko and Osborne!

Futeko summed servers situation perfectly: you need to be extremely careful. Listed rules sound good to me.

I dont know is this best place to give feedback to admins, but it is you to necessary hear whats on the players hearts.
I haven been mistreated or anything, just some notifications I made:

Osborne:
You really need to low your profile. Like I said earlier, good admin is almost invisible to other players. No one, even the most law abiding citizen, wouldnt want cop behind window watching steps you make. Would you?
I cant relax if I know someones watching my ass, and relaxing is reason why I play games. Could you?

I know its hard to be unseen, but least try to make the illusion of it. Last time we played, after 15min everybody certainly knew whos the boss. Or tried to be.

I dont want to get Admin vs. Players situation:
When admin is online, people keep focusing on him (by fooling and trying the limits). And when The Law is offline, players make all fun of it by messing around "yolo admins not around, lets block the map lol".
You know what I mean.

And for the last, I dont want to hear you flaming to your friends, how you can achieve gatling with your admin rights. Thats immature and putting yourself on a pedestal.

All above may sound bit harsh, but I really mean it. Im not tryin to smoke you out or something. We are on the same side, and I give you my 100% support. Forget your past admin experimence and handle ZM like special kid.
Every Player is weight value of gold.

- SPUTKIN 2000 [RUS]
Flaming my friends? None of my friends play on the ZM server, and those who do are nearly acquaintances. Again this is not my first rodeo don't get me wrong I like the suggestions, but I am 100% sure if I needed help with anything I can contact someone I know that is a admin or has experience.. I've been in the admin game for years, and I can't stand it when people tell me how to administrate and I will put out if I am a admin if people asked, like someone did earlier while asking me if I was a admin.. If I choose to go secret I will.. People will find out I am a administrator some way some how, it is just a matter of when, they can check the forums and my name is poofed..

I am not meaning to flame but if you have any of your "suggestions" pm me them, don't make them public and try to call me out on things you think I will do.. Like I stated in game and above, I am not a newbie admin I am a veteran.. I've been there done everything you've put..
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 05:55:12 PM: Thanks Sputkin!

Actually, Sputkin just described the exact situation for which I wrote the first paragraph of my rules of thumb:
Quote
1) Under normal circumstances:
- Never display yourself as an admin; by all means you are a regular player, here to enjoy the game the same way as any other player;
- Don't abuse admin powers when it isn't to battle a gameplay-damaging behaviour or to enhance the game (e.g. avoid unnecessary use of the "admin talk" commands, random effects or "slay all", etc.)
You need to avoid advertising yourself as an admin under any and all circumstances, for the exact reasons Sputkin stated. If someone asks you directly whether you're an admin, either ignore them or answer something like "Who knows" and move on. And nothing in your behaviour should indicate that you're an admin, unless you are correcting an offence (even then, discretion is key).

Also, one general remark I forgot to include above: as an admin, we are at the service of players, and not the opposite; any and all players should feel that way toward admins, and not feel afraid or intimidated. Secrecy and discretion are very useful tools for this.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 06:07:54 PM: Listen, I never "advertised" I was a admin, a guy asked if I was a admin and I replied.. There is nothing against saying I am, if I chose to leave and change my name from (=CG=) Ozborne to something different so people don't know I am admin I will.(Unless I am told not to by a Reg+).. I am not going to sit here and argue with you guys, I suggest waiting for Inject/Zombie to get here and say whether what I did was wrong or if I shouldn't have done it..
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 28, 2014, 06:32:35 PM: Theres no need to flare up.

I think these must be talked in public, admins arent holy oracles who cannot be questioned or instructed.

You seem not really got the whole point of my last post. Now calm down and read it again later. Night changes many thoughts. :-*

- SPUTKIN 2000 [RUS]
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 06:37:57 PM: Quote from: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 28, 2014, 06:32:35 PM
Theres no need to flare up.

I think these must be talked in public, admins arent holy oracles who cannot be questioned or instructed.

You seem not really got the whole point of my last post. Now calm down and read it again later. Night changes many thoughts. :-*

- SPUTKIN 2000 [RUS]

I never said we were holy oracles, can you stop the shit? I mean, I have no problem with you two, but Sputkin you're starting to act like my boss.. I got the whole point you were attempting to call me out saying I was "Advertising" & "Boasting" I was a administrator to people..
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 08:16:22 PM: I believe you're overreacting a bit; no one here is pointing fingers in a court accusing someone of wrongdoing. Basically the whole point can be translated as such:

"Hey dude, I don't think you should tell people you're an admin, it might make some people jumpy"
"I agree, this can only bring trouble - let's try and stay low"

So it's not a witch hunt, trial or argument - simply a discussion.

Another way to look at it is: "Not telling people you're an admin: for or against?". Currently two people expressed an opinion defending "for". If you disagree and believe we should not lay low like that, feel free to pitch in, that's the whole point of the topic :)
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 08:18:15 PM: I've been talking to extremely old administrators for the community for the past hour or two, and they all believe in what I said.. One for example said

"People need to know a admin is on or shit goes south".
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Live Bait on March 28, 2014, 09:12:40 PM: Sputkin, with all due respect,

Unless you are an Admin with Conjoint Gaming, please refrain from trying to tell ours what to do.

This thread was fine, clear, concise, and already agreed upon before you came in commanding the troops.

I feel an apology to Futeko and Ozborne is in order.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 10:22:29 PM: To be honest, I'm instead grateful for the feedback/opinion; I feel Sputkin was sort of misunderstood because of the way he expressed his opinion, which might seems commanding/harsh, when he just wanted to explain how he felt. I believe the language difference kind of made it sound bad when the intention wasn't to be like that.

On topic, I believe that making it so rules are respected only because people know someone with authority is watching is not a good method. For instance, let's say you're on a highway and you want to go above the speed limit. If you really want to, you will find a portion of road where there's no cop/radar and you'll speed all right, and you'll slow down once you see a cop car.

If people know there is an admin watching, they will behave differently; you say it's a plus, I say it's actually a bad thing:
- Offenders will just lay low and start firing once you're gone;
- Regular players will feel a pressure they'd otherwise not feel without an admin (just like you'll feel insecure when overtaking a cop car on the highway - what if the cops find something they don't like with you?).
(That's what Sputkin was saying basically).

I believe that what is important is that there is an admin online, not that people know there is an admin online. The idea is to correct bad behaviour when it arises, not to tell players that "Big Brother is watching you".
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 10:30:07 PM: I was once told by a old coder here named Vincent, he always told me to make myself revealed to keep the situations calm.. With your situation, lets say you're in a bad neighborhood in Detriot and you have 3 guys with guns beside you, I know I'd like to have a cop beside me protecting my ass and make himself visible all the time so people know not to fuck me.. With Sputkin he did indeed order me around ingame, he kept making his "Suggestions" to stay low and not to make myself visible..
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 11:08:08 PM: It's not about feeling safe; you can't be threatened over the Internet, though you can be harassed or have your gameplay experience damaged or ruined by the actions of another player. If someone is there to take care of it, then great; if not, realize you can contact someone to help you.

It's actually the opposite of the given example - when minding your own business, if there's a cop watching over your shoulder, you'll feel pressured, threatened, because you'll wonder whether that cop will find something to say about what you're doing - hence why I advocate laying low.

Advertising that an admin is in the place is a short-term solution that will not help the community in the long run, because then your impact is gone the instant you leave the server. I'd even go as far as to say that going out of your way to make people know not to fuck around while you're there is more damaging than helpful, because not only will it not help with the regular offenders (they'll just hide until you're gone), but it will make non-offenders feel pressured to keep a low profile. That logic is only valid if you can be online and active 24/7, which is not the case. I'd even go further and say that in your example, the minute the cop tells you "well, I'm going on my lunch break, see you in an hour", the armed people otherwise kept at bay will jump out and ride your ass way worse than they'd otherwise have.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 28, 2014, 11:34:50 PM: We obviously have different opinions of the situation, I am done posting on this.. Until these changes are accepted/denied I will only use a few of them, if you have a problem with that contact Inject or confront me.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 28, 2014, 11:53:22 PM: To be honest I'm rather surprised at the hostility you display regarding this discussion, when you stated that you wholeheartedly agreed with what was proposed in the first post.

I also feel the tone of the discussion was somewhat misunderstood - as I previously stated, this is neither an attack nor an argument, it's simply a discussion ("Hey, wouldn't it be better to do this?"). I don't feel there's a need to get on such a defensive high ground when the point is just to debate common guidelines; it feels like you're saying "I'll do it my way unless I'm given a direct order from a superior admin". No one here is trying to tell you how to do your job - but we're a team, and as a team we need to cooperate, and cooperation advocates understanding and compromising. It's kind of a cold shower to see that we're unable to have a calm, level-headed conversation about something as trivial as the publicity of an admin status.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 29, 2014, 12:08:43 AM: I guess I have been extremely over my head, but to be fair it wouldn't have happened if Sputkin hopped on trying to say I was or am doing the following.. "And for the last, I dont want to hear you flaming to your friends, how you can achieve gatling with your admin rights. Thats immature and putting yourself on a pedestal."

- I apologize to you guys for my attitude, I just got a bit.. er.. Defensive because I was being "bossed" around..
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 29, 2014, 07:35:52 AM: Good morning!

Quote from: Live Bait on March 28, 2014, 09:12:40 PM
Sputkin, with all due respect,

Unless you are an Admin with Conjoint Gaming, please refrain from trying to tell ours what to do.

This thread was fine, clear, concise, and already agreed upon before you came in commanding the troops.

I feel an apology to Futeko and Ozborne is in order.

Nice to have you in here. I really waited for your participation, so its really sad you ingore whole conversation by just shruggin your shoulders and saying I messed the threads good consensus.
Whats your opinion to admins visibility?
Do you play ZM? What you think about game's situation nowdays?

I know these are hard things to handle, but we shouldnt bury them under the ground and just smile happy like everythings just fine.

I have to apologize you all for my first post. It sounded bit harsh and like Futeko said, I maybe got misunderstood bit. I wasnt trying to come and told you what to do/not to do. I tend to talk straight, and using english makes it lot easier (it takes some time to write my thoughts down). Im trying to say, as a longtime hardcore ZM player, game maybe needs just certain privileges.

I have to bring this out, no matter if alone with my opinions. Ive thought this from the start, which you can see from my earlier post to Osb's admin application, and feeling about this is getting stonger every time he posts to this thread. This is not personal attack and I believe this is not reflecting to main point - Playing ZM.

I think Ozborne isnt really admin material. You're are very easily provoked, taking everything little too literally and personally + you dont show much respect to others opinion, even your fellow admin Futeko. This is your third(?) day as a admin, and youre already shown your real nature, so I dont want to see whats happening in future.
You keep talkin about your past admin experience, but thats worth of nothing if you cant learn from your mistakes. Have you?
And "admin experience" isnt just some thing you can use as a shield in tight situations, which you have habit to do.

Admin need to read different type of personalities and handle with them, not treat them like caddle.

Youre young, use it as advantage. Stop trying to be too mature, it just turns against you. You have still lot to learn from homo sapiens. Maybe we all do.

With all respect,
SPUTKIN 2000 [RUS]
(Actually Finland)
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 29, 2014, 11:23:55 AM: If you do not think I am admin material simply report me to Inject, above the post you were the one who provoked me and Futeko agreed with me while we were messaging on steam. If I am not admin material please explain more, because I obviously have to disagree with you.

Edit: Pulling the I am young card will also not work, I've had a lot of jobs and worked in a lot high places, this being said I believe I am mature enough to hold this position, what you're doing here is attempting to create a flame war.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 29, 2014, 02:13:50 PM: Things are getting ugly ingame. I got feeling of witch hunt...

960x700 px
(http://oi60.tinypic.com/kdqx4x.jpg)
(http://oi57.tinypic.com/verq4l.jpg)

Osborne, that was really awkward.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 29, 2014, 02:23:12 PM: I was undercover, I was watching 'The Muslim' acting like a normal player in game and you broke my cover by saying "nice try ozborne", I spoke to Futeko about this and he agreed you were extremely out of line.

Edit: It isn't hard to spell my name, it is everywhere ingame.. Honestly when I first spoke to you, you were interested in joining the admin team but after I got it you've been god bent on trying to get me removed. Also I spoke to a retired Community Leader and he said I did nothing wrong calling you a "idiot", if you wish I could probably take a screen shot of mine and his chat. (Jorgen) If you have a problem calling me out on something you shouldn't have done, then don't do it.. As stated above I was acting like a normal player asking if there is admin to see if I could get someone to say "No, we're doing bad things" like I did get someone similar to say! Maybe you need to stop now, I will be speaking with a higher administrator to handle this situation, you're getting on my nerves.. By the most part it is coming on like you're trying to start a flame war with me, which I advise is not a good thing to do.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 29, 2014, 02:55:11 PM: 1. Why to in first place ask whos admin? Two times.
2. As you see, I said "nice try, Osb" I didnt really know it's you. Just in case I picked my words carefully and didnt use your nick - im not dumb. No one noticed anything in middle of the intensive gaming.
3. Instead of keepin your role, you... Well this GIF I saw recently tells more than thousand words.
(http://i.imgur.com/Dwzgo.gif)
CHECK OUT EVERYONE HE REVEALED ME

Please dont blame me on rule violations if you dont know them yourself. As an admin.

Edit to your edit:
Like I said to you couple days ago: I dont try to get admin because I trust you two can handle the job.
Before that it was you who asked me to join admin team.

I dont like how you speak by others mouth. Id like to have "Jorgen" and Futeko here to express their feelings.

Otherwise this conversation isnt going way or another.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Futeko on March 29, 2014, 02:58:17 PM: You need to seriously calm down.

If you were trying to be undercover, why did you speak out like that first things into the game? Just join the game and stay silent, no one will call you out. If you join a game and get very insistent about whether people knows there's an admin online, of course you're plainly exposing yourself. It's like asking people to hit you and then complaining afterwards that someone did.

In any case, Sputkin you shouldn't have called him out; that's still not okay to do regardless of the circumstances.

I suggest you two arrange some time off-game to have a calm discussion about this. Let's please handle this in an adult and mature way. If you really can't agree or sort things out, then just ignore each other and call it off. Right now, you're both turning this into a way bigger problem than it needs to be, and if you continue on that path, it will blow up one way or another, and that's in the interest of nobody.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 29, 2014, 03:34:58 PM: I can attempt to have Jorgen post on the thread, but if not I will surely take a picture of what he said..
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Blackllama on March 29, 2014, 03:46:37 PM: I don't even think you need to get any outside opinions, Futeko is giving good advice.

Quote from: Futeko on March 29, 2014, 02:58:17 PM
If you were trying to be undercover, why did you speak out like that first things into the game? Just join the game and stay silent, no one will call you out. If you join a game and get very insistent about whether people knows there's an admin online, of course you're plainly exposing yourself. It's like asking people to hit you and then complaining afterwards that someone did.

In any case, Sputkin you shouldn't have called him out; that's still not okay to do regardless of the circumstances.

I suggest you two arrange some time off-game to have a calm discussion about this. Let's please handle this in an adult and mature way. If you really can't agree or sort things out, then just ignore each other and call it off. Right now, you're both turning this into a way bigger problem than it needs to be, and if you continue on that path, it will blow up one way or another, and that's in the interest of nobody.

This thread is like making an issue out of a non-issue.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Ozborne on March 29, 2014, 03:50:50 PM: So pretty much this thread will continue to be a massive issue, may we just request a lock to the thread?
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 29, 2014, 04:12:11 PM: I think I have said my words, and I believe you got my point.

If anyone doesnt have anything more to say, lock sounds good to me. Rather its shame that more active Z players didnt participate in the discussion, but well, community isnt big either.

ZM is my favourite child, so I promise I'll contact to you two in here or by PM if I something pops into my mind.

See you at Zombie Master. :-*
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Live Bait on March 29, 2014, 08:38:26 PM: Quote from: SPUTKIN 2000 on March 29, 2014, 07:35:52 AM

Nice to have you in here. I really waited for your participation, so its really sad you ingore whole conversation by just shruggin your shoulders and saying I messed the threads good consensus.
Whats your opinion to admins visibility?
Do you play ZM? What you think about game's situation nowdays?

Mr. Sputkin, all I see from you is an attempt to draw more of an argument to this thread, so I won't participate in what was once a civil exchange.
Defending my fellow Admins is not "shrugging [my] shoulders".

You have hi-jacked this thread from its original intent of "Offenses and Resulting Actions". If you have a problem with an Admin, please post a proper Admin Abuse thread in the appropriate area.
Mr. Osbourne and Mr. Futeko have just become Trial Admins. Mistakes are to be expected. I know I've made my fair share of them. That is how we learn to be better at a job we are not only not-paid-to-do but also do in our spare time. But the way you are coming off resembles an attack. And I WILL NOT stand for it.
And I will say this AGAIN: Unless you are an Admin with Conjoint Gaming, please refrain from trying to tell ours what to do.
Title: Re: Offences and resulting actions
Post by: Inject OH 4 on April 03, 2014, 09:20:38 AM: wow, what did I miss?