This is how to make our TF2 server good, and why.

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This is how to make our TF2 server good, and why. by TheSlyder on 06 Mar, 2011 18:04
There's a standard that should be held for TF2 servers, or at least ours, that I feel isn't really being respected so far. These are a few issues that I feel NEED to be reconsidered:

All-talk:
All-talk is horrible for TF2, which is a team-strategy based games. Having all-talk turned on is as bastardizing to gameplay as having no mic-use allowed. Teams HAVE to be able to communicate and create plans without their opponents hearing them. I agree that it's fun to socialize while playing the game, but have All-talk off by default, and if a person WANTS to talk to the other team, then allow them to change it. There's absolutely no reason to have All-talk turned on for a user by default, and doing so means that EVERY PLAYER that plays the game is going to have all-talk turned on, usually without knowing it, and they're going to say something that gives away a strategy or a team-advantage. It's confusing to have some players using all-talk and some not. At some point you're going to have a new player respond (With all-talk) to someone discussing strategy (Without all-talk) all because all-talk is turned on by default. Team Fortress 2 is primarily a competitive FPS and a social instrument second. Allow people to use all-talk, but for God's sake, don't have it turned on by default, otherwise you might as well not even bother.

All-talk (Part two):
When all-talk is enabled, it means dead players can talk to live players. This needs to be disabled 100% of the time no matter what. There are several classes that rely on flanking, ambushing, staying hidden, etc. to be effectively played, and if a dead player can immediately call out the position of a disguised spy, hidden sniper, or ambushing pyro, it immediately foils a big part of those classes. It would be like if you halved the amount of ammo usable for the Heavy's minigun, or nerfed the speed at which rockets are shot. It's unfair to those classes. There's no debating this aspect, being able to talk to the living while dead HAS to be disabled.

Respawn Time:
We need default respawn time. I don't care if there are players who "get bored" during the TWENTY SECONDS MAX it takes to respawn. If our players can patiently spectate for ten minutes in TTT, they can handle default respawn times in TF2. Watch other players and learn a thing or two. Spectating inbetween lives is a great way to gather intelligence and potentially an upper-hand. You may learn where a sentry is hidden thanks to watching your team-mate get killed by it, NOW you know to take the scenic route to the last point. Valve created a game and they put these respawn times in for a reason. You may not know this, but the respawn time adjusts itself mid-game depending on several factors. How well your team is doing, how close the offense is to the goal, etc. They didn't just say "Fuck it, let's just make twenty second respawns just to be dicks." If you're set to respawn for twenty seconds, there's a reason for it.

If I'm playing as a Spy on a CTF map and I'm in the Intel Room (Which is near the spawn-point, for the sake of argument) and I worked really hard to get there, slowly pacing my way, strategically disguising, cloaking, and gathering ammo crates to stay hidden, and I finally make it to the Intel Room. I wait until the perfect moment to strike, and I backstab an Engineer and successfully sap his Sentry, with fast respawn enabled, that Engineer is going to be back in the Intel Room,, knocking my sapper off his sentry and shooting at me before I'm even able to escape.

Does that sound fair?

When the cart is ten feet away from the final point and RED spawns RIGHT NEXT to it in a few seconds, but BLU spawns all the way across the map in the same amount of time, does that sound fair?

Respawn times are there for a reason. They balance the game. By messing with them, lowering them, etc. you might as well be giving RED damage bonuses, or faster walking speed, or any other unfair advantage. Not to mention the fact that fast respawn times promote stalemates because respawn time isn't JUST a punishment for being killed, it's a reward for killing. In that Spy scenario, after I backstab that Engineer, my reward for killing him is that it'll be a while before he respawns.

Ease of access:
You're putting in all kinds of mods that allow for special chat commands, so far I imagine it's pretty confusing for the uninitiated, and it also spams the chat area with annoying messages that you only really need to see once.

My recommendation is to replace all of those announcements with one: "Type !help for a list of available commands." It'll bring up a box showing what players can do:

!bp "Looks at the backpack of your target"
!backpack <Player name> "Looks at the backpack of named player"
!alltalk "Turns on/off the ability to use all-talk"

Get what I'm saying? Of course that last one doesn't work, but it would make it a lot easier than telling players to bind a command to a key. (Of course, they could still bind a key if they wanted, for ease of use. This command would be ideal for newer players, though.)
Reply #1 by AlphaWeeaboo on 06 Mar, 2011 18:16
We already have an all talk thing in there. Although we need to get an advert message to let people know how to use it. bind a key to "alltalk" I think it was.
Reply #2 by Wholegrain on 06 Mar, 2011 18:38
@ alltalk being on cg has always had alltalk on by default it is on and players if they want can toggle it off with the plugin we have

@ respawn time the logic you brought up didn't make much sense considering the ratio still is the same it wouldn't matter if we changed it to 2 seconds 5 seconds 30 seconds or even 5 minutes the ratio remains the same 10:10 and 30:30

@ the !help that is actually a plugin and quite a good idea i completely forgot about that plugin although it wouldn't help explain the alltalk plugin which require it to be toggled and to bind a key for that to happen. It would require something related to the motd the help plugin uses the in game radio menu (like when you nominate a map and doesn't allow to explain each command)

that is my current view on it

and slyder what you have brought up is opinion based and more so a theory that hard concrete and same with my theory their is no actual data to pull up but it is more so form observations which you and I have both come to different conclusions

I await the communities input
Reply #3 by Cadaver on 06 Mar, 2011 19:00
Hmm. In servers such as CS:S, Insurgency, TF:2, and the like team vs team games, all talk should be default off.
Toggling it off should be easy, but since when has the average player paid attention to the varying plug ins out there? Since when do the average players take notice of differences between servers? Most just want to drop in and play, not having to reset their gaming experience before playing... And having to do so, or their not understanding they can change the experience, tends to lead them elsewhere... Counter to CG's goal of growth.

Those who should be allowed to hear all talk, of course, would be admins, seeing if someone is flaunting the rules. (In that case, they should not be playing the round, and misusing it to the benefit of their team... and if they do so, they should be considered abusing their admin rights...)

I understand the want for CG to have all talk on by default on its servers. And it should be this way, but the negative impact on team games should out weigh the want to keep the game talk open.
Reply #4 by TheSlyder on 06 Mar, 2011 19:08
Thank you, Cadaver. Enjoyability and fun is important, but it should never compromise the integrity of the game.

Emo and Wholegrain, you guys should re-read my post. I gave solid examples of why what I had to say isn't as "opinion based" as you think, and why all-talk should be off by default.
Reply #5 by AlphaWeeaboo on 06 Mar, 2011 19:14
I understand you there. I was just adding that in that we had the plugin. Although by default we could it off and allow it to be toggled.
Reply #6 by Wholegrain on 06 Mar, 2011 19:36
Quote
All-talk:
All-talk is horrible for TF2, which is a team-strategy based games. Having all-talk turned on is as bastardizing to gameplay as having no mic-use allowed. Teams HAVE to be able to communicate and create plans without their opponents hearing them. I agree that it's fun to socialize while playing the game, but have All-talk off by default, and if a person WANTS to talk to the other team, then allow them to change it. There's absolutely no reason to have All-talk turned on for a user by default, and doing so means that EVERY PLAYER that plays the game is going to have all-talk turned on, usually without knowing it, and they're going to say something that gives away a strategy or a team-advantage. It's confusing to have some players using all-talk and some not. At some point you're going to have a new player respond (With all-talk) to someone discussing strategy (Without all-talk) all because all-talk is turned on by default. Team Fortress 2 is primarily a competitive FPS and a social instrument second. Allow people to use all-talk, but for God's sake, don't have it turned on by default, otherwise you might as well not even bother.

All-talk (Part two):
When all-talk is enabled, it means dead players can talk to live players. This needs to be disabled 100% of the time no matter what. There are several classes that rely on flanking, ambushing, staying hidden, etc. to be effectively played, and if a dead player can immediately call out the position of a disguised spy, hidden sniper, or ambushing pyro, it immediately foils a big part of those classes. It would be like if you halved the amount of ammo usable for the Heavy's minigun, or nerfed the speed at which rockets are shot. It's unfair to those classes. There's no debating this aspect, being able to talk to the living while dead HAS to be disabled.

reading all of that yes your opinion is that players will come in and want to talk to their teams instead of socialize first

i think oppositely because a big part of the fun is talking to other and usually with a good community the community itself will actually attract the players

its opinion based from your observations and what you perceive to be the most important for the game just as mine is you provided examples that are what is the heart of this debate for alltalk being on We can try it where it is automatically off when you join and you can turn it on but for now im seeing alot of regulars come back and i haven't heard any complaints except from you and ducky

for the talking while dead i agree 100% im going to look for a plugin to disable it i know their is one out there

also please be aware this is a debate and i am not angry and not attempting to lash out just a simple debate in case all of this came off as asshole ish than i apologize

@emo and cadaver this debate is not about whether alltalk should be on or not but we have a plugin that allows you to toggle alltalk on and off and we are debating about whether it should be on by default (more community and sociable wise) or off (more strategy and team based more gameplay oriented) Its a small issue because you can toggle it off if you needed or wanted too

EDIT: yea im starting to see a lot of people coming back to our tf2 server lots of regulars starting to build up we still need alot of community support but its getting their (somewhat offtopic srry)
Reply #7 by TheSlyder on 06 Mar, 2011 20:21
Your opinion is that everybody who plays on the CG TF2 server wants to socialize first, play second.

I'm not putting my opinion out there on the subject, what I'm saying is factual: All-talk disrupts the game mechanics. There's no disputing that, because the game was meant to be played with all-talk off, and with a player communicating with his team.

Honestly, why are you fighting this so hard? I'm not saying we should do away with all-talk, I'm just saying it should be off by default so new players don't come in and start talking team strategy to the other team without knowing it.

My way: Everyone wins. You and the socialites of TF2 get to have all-talk, but new players don't make a mistake and fuck up the game.

Your way: You and the socialites of TF2 get to have all-talk, but new players will frequently ruin secret strategies or give away important information on accident.

There's no reason to fight against my suggestion, since my suggestion is the one that benefits EVERYONE instead of just one side of the debate.
Reply #8 by AlphaWeeaboo on 06 Mar, 2011 20:25
Basically same plug in but everyone starts off with all talk off and it can be toggled right?
If so yeah that makes sense.
Reply #9 by Wholegrain on 06 Mar, 2011 20:30
to be honest it just goes both ways lol

im sure they would know alltalk is on when they see the blue and red voice icons

I told you to put it up here and let the players decide

Its a small little thing

Mainly we need to find a way to better inform the people in the tf2 server about how to toggle it on and off

find a better way such as motd and i wouldn't have any problem changing it
Reply #10 by AlphaWeeaboo on 06 Mar, 2011 20:32
When you turn it off you still hear the other team though...
Also make it so the webpage directs to a topic with TF2 info or whatever or an MOTD if we make one for that game.
Reply #11 by TheSlyder on 06 Mar, 2011 20:46
It doesn't go both ways. My way means that people still get to use alltalk without accidents. Your way means people get to use alltalk WITH accidents.

There's no reason to argue this, Wholegrain, and there's no reason to "let the community decide," because in this situation there is a logical, practical, way of doing it, and a nonsensical, irrational, way of doing it.

Yours is the latter.
Reply #12 by Wholegrain on 06 Mar, 2011 23:31
I have a perfectly good way of solving this

you want it on i want it off

yahtzee is head admin lets let him have the final say whatever he says goes

i still think if you don't realize alltalk is on when first joining you are retarded XD

I see where you are coming from your point is that accidents will happen the only problem i see is that the advertisements to bind a key to toggle alltalk on is right now not well done and the alternative is motd with a list of the commands in the servers and their functions
Reply #13 by Kwaurtz on 07 Mar, 2011 01:47
When the original TF2 server went up that I was head admin for, I turned alltalk off and kept it off by default Wholegrain. Don't spout facts that aren't true.
Reply #14 by Wholegrain on 07 Mar, 2011 09:49
these aren't facts lol these are all speculations

the one thing slyder said that was factual was that the gameplay revolves around alltalk being off i agree it adds to that but we are speculating the impact it has on the player.

Once again talk to yahtzee its his decision. Server is doing pretty well so we are doing something well at least lol

Being head admin on a tf2 server for about a week when it was empty i don't think gives much credibility to your experience with tf2 servers

however it looks like this is a downhill battle and I am the only one who sees that this is entirely retarded its like fighting over which map comes first on the maplist Ill change the setting when i get home and ask yahtzee for his official stance on the subject.