An Immodest Proposal or "Slyder's Suggestions for an Ideal Server"

• An Immodest Proposal or "Slyder's Suggestions for an Ideal Server"   by TheSlyder on 12 Mar, 2011 23:26
• I thought it would be a good idea to put all my thoughts into one thread and let everyone voice their opinions on it after having made my case. There are a lot of things I think our server could use to improve its quality, and I'd like to address some of those things without coming off as too elitist or snobby (Just for the record though; I know best, I'm always right, and I know more about TF2 than anybody else, so don't question me.)
  
  I'm aware this is very similar to my last thread, but expanded. Last thread was locked though, and it's just neater and cleaner to make a new one for this stuff.
  
  The Ideal Server:
  I believe that a server should create a gameplay experience in sync with what the designers originally had in mind for it. I believe it's our responsibility to uphold the level of balance, enjoyability, and gameplay experience that Valve created when they created TF2. There are a few things that implies though that some of you may not agree with, like all-talk, or a lack there of. That said, I hope you all consider the points I'm making from a serious standpoint and put the integrity of the game at a higher priority than, say, social conversation.
  
  So here are some things that I'd like everyone to consider implementing or changing:
  
  1. Disable random crits:
  I'm normally very purist when it comes to the game mechanics. "Valve put respawn times there for a reason." This is the one exception. I have no idea what Valve was thinking when they decided it would be a good idea to create a system where a random factor will reward random and undeserving players for no reason. If you've ever been killed by one hit because of a random crit, I'm sure you felt cheated, and rightfully so. Random crits reward players with kills they didn't earn. They shouldn't be in the game, even if you're a casual player, it still feels shitty to get killed unjustly because of a dice-roll.
  
  So I'd like to suggest we disable random crits on our server. I've never heard an argument that's pro-random crits that makes sense. It's a bad thing that drags down the enjoyability of an otherwise polished and fun game.
  
  
  2. Respawn time:
  I complained about this in the other thread and it went unconsidered. Now that some time has passed, I've heard more and more people agree with me and complain about how short respawn times negatively affect the flow of the game. I'm willing to push for default respawn times for the CG server.
  
  3. Disable All-talk completely:
  Maybe it's just me. I've heard a few other complaints, but none as vocal about respawn time, but when we've got a 10v10 game going and most players have a mic, it becomes an extremely abrasive and unpleasant experience. It's worth noting that I'm typically okay with all-talk (As long as team-talk is default, so no mistakes are made.) but in this situation I honestly couldn't get a word in edge-wise. It was non-stop mic-use by 3+ users at a time. It was loud, chaotic, and very unpleasant.
  
  Wholegrain firmly believes that people want to have all-talk turned on so they can socialize with TF2. Considering the default for TF2 is non-all-talk, I think that's an unreasonable conclusion. People know what the norm is when they boot up TF2. Even without all-talk, players can still socialize with their team mates and talk to enemy players by using the non-team chat function.
  
  My proposal for this is to disable the all-talk function that we currently have once 18 or more players are on the server except during the humiliation phase and the set-up phase.
  
  I believe this will still allow an abundance of talking and socialization in a full server without making it such a crowded and loud experience, and when there are fewer players on the server (8v8, for example) we can use all-talk the same as we currently are.
  
  4. Map rotation instead of map voting every round:
  This one will probably be a bit controversial. I remember bringing the concept of map rotation up on the TTT server and everybody was pretty adamant about CG being the type of community that "lets the community decide" on things. That works well for TTT since the gameplay experience will be the same regardless of map, but with TF2 the experience changes drastically depending on the type of map being played. Payload and CTF maps will give you very different experiences. In the last week or two, I've noticed that our server plays a lot more Payload than anything else. Were we to create a map rotation, we could sprinkle variety into the gameplay schedule and make it more tolerable for some people. I'm sure you're thinking "But if that's what "the people" want, then that's what they should get." That's great for the 60% of the players that want to play Payload all the time, but what about the 40% that prefer CP or CTF? Make everybody happy by giving the server a dependable variety of gameplay experiences in the form of a map rotation.
  
  If it's that big of a concern, we can work it out so rtv still works if initiated, rather than having to vote EVERY map.
  
  5. Humiliation round:
  Right now the humiliation round (The short time period after the round is over where the winning team gets to gloat, invade the other team's locker room, and taunt) is so short you barely have time to taunt. I can't imagine why this is, as the default is longer, so someone had to have made a decision to shorten the time. We need to fix this right away. It's annoying, nobody likes it, etc. Right now it's probably around five seconds. We need 15-20 seconds for the proper humiliation round.
  
  6. Fix the ranking system:
  Right now killing someone as a heavy with your minigun will score you one point per kill, while prancing around like a retard and killing someone on accident with the flamethrower as a Pyro will score THREE points. Headshots, arguably one of the most difficult types of kills in the game, gets you one point.
  
  I propose a new system. It's rough around the edges, but I feel like it bases the reward on the amount of risk and skill involved in getting a kill:
  

  Quote

  Top Tier (Awards 5+ points)
  

  • Taunt kills (5 points)
  • Headshot by deflected arrow (10 points)

  
  
  High Tier (Awards 4 points)
  

  • Backstabs
  • Deflection kills
  • Headshots
  • Contribution to stage hazards (Airblasted, stunned, etc.)

  
  Mid-high Tier (Awards 3 points)
  

  • Melee kills
  • Most other weapons (Shotguns, pistols, revolvers, etc.)
  • Destroyed Sentry
  • Sentry kills

  
  Normal Tier (Awards 2 points)
  

  • Minigun
  • Flamethrower
  • Rockets
  • Grenades
  • Destroyed Dispenser
  • Destroyed Teleporter

  
  7. Rank-rival system
  I know it might be difficult to impliment, but it's worth bringing up. It would add some depth and fun to the rank system. Most of us already have our rivals that we're constantly comparing ourselves to. This system would allow you to assign a person the title of your rival, and it would allow you to bring up a comparison window (!rival) that would show your stats side-by-side.
  
  8. Display rank number on scoreboard
  Self explanatory. It would be great to just glance at the scoreboard and look at the ranks of everybody playing the game with you. It would feel good to dominate a guy only to look at the scoreboard and see that he's the number one player on the server.
  
  It might not be easy to code. I really don't know, but again, it's worth bringing up.
• Reply #1   by Wholegrain on 12 Mar, 2011 23:41
• Would it be better if i just threw up a 1 slot server that is password locked and only for slyder ? lol
  1-4 disagreement
  5 agree
  6 don't care as much and what you have seems ok (the reflected arrows not sure if that is built into the plugin)
  
• Reply #2   by slimd1995 on 12 Mar, 2011 23:41
• I think the respawn times are the biggest issue. It gives the attacking team too much of an advantage.
• Reply #3   by LeninCat on 12 Mar, 2011 23:42
• Disabling crits: No.
  Respawn time: Set it fairly to each class, I.E making heavy respawn time longest due to his massive offensive capabilities
  Disabling alltalk: It's not fact, there is no fact, there never will be any fact. I still stand by making setup/waiting for players alltalk, and gameplay off.
  Map rotation: Yes.
  Humiliation round: Yes.
  Ranking system: Yes, except backstabs should be one tier lower, in my opinion.
  Rival system: Sounds good, but sounds like a pain in the ass if there is no plugin for it.
  Rank on scoreboard: Same as above.
• Reply #4   by TheSlyder on 12 Mar, 2011 23:54
• Wholegrain, you should know that I care about this server, and I've put my best foot forward in trying to suggest things for it.
  
  I've tried to hold my tongue about it and be polite and respectable when discussing it with you, but I think it's about time I spoke my mind.
  
  You don't know jack-shit about this. You make claims of opinions where you shouldn't. You might as well be saying "In my opinion the world would be safer without stop lights." Just because you put "IMHO" after your statements like a cheap disclaimer doesn't mean they're actual opinions. On some of these issues, primarily respawn time, you're wrong. There's no "opinion" to it, and it's goddamn annoying for you to sit there and shoot down my suggestions on the basis of "Let's agree to disagree." I put forth effort on citing examples and reasons why default respawn times are important, and you scratch your asshole, sniff your finger, and say "Huh? Oh, well I disagree, in my opinion the way I set it up is better."
  
  I want this to be a great server, but you fight me on everything I recommend despite the fact that I've got a very distinct advantage over you in exposure to TF2 and the way it works.
  
  You've already set up the server the way you PREFER and it's clear it's going to have to take a lot more than logic, evidence, and reasoning, to change it.
  
  You can LIKE fast respawn more all you want, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you try to argue that it's not worse for gameplay. Maybe if you actually played on the server instead of idling as a spectator 90% of the time you'd experience WHY first hand.
• Reply #5   by Cadaver on 13 Mar, 2011 00:40
• (perhaps sarcasm is sarcasm?)
  
  Aside from that, I have no dog in this hunt. 
• Reply #6   by A.K Commando on 13 Mar, 2011 01:37
• I would like to ponit out that Fast Respawns acually beniifit the Defender more on certain maps as they generally have a shorter distance to walk then the standerd attacker. As for Alltalk I don't care either way, though i would prefer if it was still toggleable since I enjoy talking to friends on the other team. I don't mind if Humiliation got lnoger sicne i don't do much there. As for Random Crits I enjoy them since they add a random aspect that you find in most wars. Also Slyder if you want an Arguement about it random crits balance it out for newer players against more experianced players with better weapons, EG The fuckin Brass Beast. I'll agree to Map Rotation instead of Voting because like you mentioned slyder, we play more Payload then most any other map and truthfully I'm gettin bored of it. Ranking and Rival systems sounds cool but I'm not sure how I can affect that.
  
  And that's my opinion on this matter.
• Reply #7   by Wholegrain on 13 Mar, 2011 02:22
• Quote from: TheSlyder on 12 Mar, 2011 23:54

  Wholegrain, you should know that I care about this server, and I've put my best foot forward in trying to suggest things for it.
  
  I've tried to hold my tongue about it and be polite and respectable when discussing it with you, but I think it's about time I spoke my mind.
  
  You don't know jack-shit about this. You make claims of opinions where you shouldn't. You might as well be saying "In my opinion the world would be safer without stop lights." Just because you put "IMHO" after your statements like a cheap disclaimer doesn't mean they're actual opinions. On some of these issues, primarily respawn time, you're wrong. There's no "opinion" to it, and it's goddamn annoying for you to sit there and shoot down my suggestions on the basis of "Let's agree to disagree." I put forth effort on citing examples and reasons why default respawn times are important, and you scratch your asshole, sniff your finger, and say "Huh? Oh, well I disagree, in my opinion the way I set it up is better."
  
  I want this to be a great server, but you fight me on everything I recommend despite the fact that I've got a very distinct advantage over you in exposure to TF2 and the way it works.
  
  You've already set up the server the way you PREFER and it's clear it's going to have to take a lot more than logic, evidence, and reasoning, to change it.
  
  You can LIKE fast respawn more all you want, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you try to argue that it's not worse for gameplay. Maybe if you actually played on the server instead of idling as a spectator 90% of the time you'd experience WHY first hand.
  

  
  If you knew what i actually liked exactly CG would be empty my actions derive from the happiness of a full server to which we have differing strategies.  The reason i disagree (I don't know about fighting lol) is we have run many servers and just because i can't name all the hats doesn't mean i don't have experience with this.  This is around my 6th tf2 server 3 being in this community (one was very short lived and one includes this new one) the ideas you are bringing up parallel to what we ALREADY tried on our last servers to which they did not thrive.
  
  The TTT DARKRP ZPS ZM and TF2 server if they were what i wanted they would all be giant dick models running around and it wouldn't be anything anyone else likes.  We are obviously doing something right with the server now and if we do go about change be careful with it and not reckless.  Slyder just because you suggest it means it is the law and just because i have a differing view does not mean I am trying to fight with you about it.  The last thing you suggested got approved even though my views differed (the alltalk became off by default from what i know of). 
  
  As for the not using opinions appropriately i think that stating the theory that more people like alltalk off than on is more or an opinion if a survey or pure data is not presented. 
  
  Same goes with #4 it brings up an example but what is stopping the players from just leaving the server if it changes to a map people don't want to go to?  That is probably the most radical idea that i disagree with
  
  The respawn i don't really have much of an idea on i can move it back about 2-3 seconds as some what of a temporary compromise and bring it up later.  For 30 seconds considering most gamers don't want to sit in spec mode waiting to respawn im sure their would be a number that would just leave the server.  You want to make the server fun from what you define from your perspective.  I have an obligation to keep the server full which is the only thing i really care about and I am not saying that it would be less fun but you will be surprised that fun =/= full server most of the time.  If anything of managing servers for 3 years 50+ servers that is the one major thing i have learned.
  
  
  I believe these debates can be carried out in a more professional and friendly fashion.
  
  
• Reply #8   by Wholegrain on 13 Mar, 2011 02:23
• If anything what we could do is put up 2 tf2 servers perhaps wait for the current to get better and have a 2nd one go up with enough changes that it is more stand alone rather than a replica of the other tf2 server.
• Reply #9   by Kwaurtz on 13 Mar, 2011 02:41
• Disable fucking alltalk during game and make the respawn timer default. Balance out the kills for the rank system. I don't care about random crits, or map rotation.
  
  
  The server is the property of the community Wholegrain.
• Reply #10   by TheSlyder on 13 Mar, 2011 02:45
• We have enough trouble as it is populating our one TF2 server. If you were to make two of them it would become even more difficult, even for the more popular one. If you want to give that a try though, I'm all for it. One "vanilla" server and one "goof off" server.
  
  You seem to be under the impression that I'm fighting for default respawn times because I like it. I don't like having to wait twenty seconds to respawn sometimes. I like even less, though, all of my work being for nothing when I have to run across the map for thirty seconds to kill someone that respawns and revenge-kills me before I can even start capping a point.
  
  I've talked to some of the others about it, and we've theorized that a lot of people join the server, play for a round, then opt-out because of this. It's not fun to constantly get fucked over by fast respawn. It's great when you're on the defensive side, but when you're working AGAINST the fast respawn, it's not fun.
  
  
  Commando, you bring up a valid point about crits, but I still believe they should be removed, especially considering the fact that, since EVERYBODY gets random crits, they can fuck over newbies as well as veterans, and in some cases will give an even BIGGER advantage to the people with the experience and the unlocked items. My point still stands that they're a nonsensical random factor that pisses people off.
  
  There are two types of "losses" in the video game world. The bullshit kind and the fair kind. The fair kind is usually because of something that you could have prevented, had you understood the situation more or had more experience with the game. These become less common with experience.
  
  The bullshit kind are where, no matter how amazing you are, it doesn't even matter if you're God, you still die. Bullshit losses are unfair, and they shouldn't exist. The pleasure of getting a crit and having your dirty work done FOR you by lady luck isn't worth the pain of having a great run snuffed out because of some douchewad that just happened to accidentally fire a rocket in your direction that also just happened to be a crit.
• Reply #11   by Wholegrain on 13 Mar, 2011 02:58
• @ slyder of course i meant later on lol not soon like just putting up a 2nd tf2 server like that
• Reply #12   by Simplex on 13 Mar, 2011 03:17
• In a small scale game, random crits are pretty gay yea. But when you have a large scale of like 9v9 or more, then it becomes the clutch moments. which isn't too bad
  
  2.  RESPAWN TIME HOLY SHIT READ THIS.
  
  In defense maps, it makes a HUGE difference.
  
  So, let me put it in terms for you bro.
  
  It takes 20 seconds to run to the point (Blue Attacker)
  
  Respawn is 5 seconds.
  
  It takes 2 seconds to get to the point
  
  Respawn is 5 seconsd.
  
  The 18 second difference is enough to really set up, overheal, and keep the area safe, when the blue team has to go the whole distance to reach the point.
  
  Also on this point, in PL you do not cap instantly like in CP maps, where the final point is only 2 seconds.
  
  With a longer respawn timer, you won't have STALEMATES at the last push, which is very frustrating and may cause rage.
  
  Honestly, if I'm going to kill someone for them to come back, full health, before I can even move the cart 10 meters, that's a pain in my rectum.
  
  3. All talk: I'm okay with this, when it gets serious it really isn't used much.
  
  4. Could compromise, with like a map rotation and an RTV function to get maps not on the rotation.
  
  5. Humiliation rounds are nice for most people, but for me I'd like to just push ze carts/points some more.
  
  6. This'll be pretty difficult to fine tune, but it'll get there in time.
  
  7. People would rage at me bro, rageeee. But on a serious note it would be nice to actually know how far you are from the next person above you. like rank 5 saying you are 20 points from rank 4
  
  8. Everyone would target me then D=
• Reply #13   by Simplex on 13 Mar, 2011 03:20
• Oh forgot to elaborate.
  
  for a large game
  
  like 10v10
  
  It's a lot harder to push when you get 10 people in 5 seconds
  
  as opposed to 10 people in 20 seconds, which is the default timer.
  
  this allows a team that just wiped the other to push all the way, and get satisfaction for their kills
• Reply #14   by Inject OH 4 on 13 Mar, 2011 03:28
• Disable random crits i Completely disagree with, the games made with them, thus deal with them.

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